Poitiers Revised

Most Frenchmen with patriotic feelings point to the Battle of Poitiers as a defining moment in the history of France and of Europe. For it was in 732, somewhere near Poitiers (the exact location is disputed), that the Frankish hero Charles Martel defeated the Arab army, and paved the way for the continued growth and Christianization of France.
According to English Wikipedia, 19th century historians such as Gibbon accorded major importance to this battle:
Later Christian chroniclers and pre-20th century historians praised Charles Martel as the champion of Christianity, characterizing the battle as the decisive turning point in the struggle against Islam, a struggle which preserved Christianity as the religion of Europe; according to modern military historian Victor Davis Hanson, "most of the 18th and 19th century historians, like Gibbon, saw Poitiers (Tours), as a landmark battle that marked the high tide of the Muslim advance into Europe." Leopold von Ranke felt that "Poitiers was the turning point of one of the most important epochs in the history of the world."
Modern historians, however, are divided:
Modern historians, by contrast, are divided over the battle's importance, and considerable disagreement exists as to whether or not the victory was responsible — as Gibbon and his generation of historians claimed, and which is echoed by many modern historians — for saving Christianity and halting the conquest of Europe by Islam. However, there is little dispute that the battle helped lay the foundations of the Carolingian Empire and Frankish domination of Europe for the next century; most historians agree that "The establishment of Frankish power in western Europe shaped that continent's destiny and the Battle of Tours confirmed that power."
The following quote from Gibbon is in stark contrast to what we read today in books, newspapers, on the web, on television, and in our classrooms, where Islam is either extolled as a "religion of peace", or as a religion that has been "highjacked" by terrorists, or as a force preferable in any case to Christianity, or worse: as a reformable doctrine that can adapt to Western ways with our help. Gibbon felt otherwise:
"A victorious line of march had been prolonged above a thousand miles from the rock of Gibraltar to the banks of the Loire; the repetition of an equal space would have carried the Saracens to the confines of Poland and the Highlands of Scotland; the Rhine is not more impassable than the Nile or Euphrates, and the Arabian fleet might have sailed without a naval combat into the mouth of the Thames. Perhaps the interpretation of the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Mahomet."
Somewhere along the way, Western Europe (and the United States) softened towards Islam, and began rejecting Christianity, as if it were an alien body.
The site of the Battle of Poitiers, though uncertain, is accepted by many French historians as being the village of Moussais-la-Bataille, in the commune of Vouneuil-sur-Vienne, between the cities of Châtellerault and Poitiers. It was there that the Festival called "732, Moussais-la-Bataille" was held, on Sunday July 26, 2010, organized by the Office of Tourism of Vouneuil-sur-Vienne.
There is nothing unusual about any of that. It isn't until you look at the program and the events offered to the public, that you may begin to wonder, as did both Novopress and François Desouche if the Arabs didn't come out of the battle of Poitiers victorious:
Live performances, juggling, multi-ethnic oriental and medieval music (musique métissée).
Note: "Musique métissée" is a new term for me. Now even music intermarries!
Tour and Lectures.
Oriental and regional market.
Exhibits at the Arab World Institute. (!)
Camel rides. (!)
Reading of tales by the "Causette" Association.
Games for children.
What happened to Charles Martel? What happened to the victory for Christianity? One François Desouche reader suggests two more events:
Self-flagellation
Group conversion to Islam
Here are a few more comments:
- But this is a nightmare! Have they all gone mad, or what? What are they trying to prove? Shame on those who, in the name of mental decrepitude, are selling us to the invader. Charles Martel, don't worry. There are still enough Gaulois left to vindicate the honor of France.
- If you are curious enough to go there and look at the names and faces of the municipal staff, you will not find a single Mohammed or Khader. Just regular Frenchmen like us! Which means that this is the type of person, with his boot-licking imbecilic radical chic initiatives, who is the worst of the gravediggers of the France we love.
- They left Poitiers in 732. They returned to Roissy in a 747.
- Why not have workshops and courses for beginners in beating, stoning, gang raping, etc... All these riches that Charles Martel wasn't able to see!
- They have a lot of nerve. I'd like to go strolling around one day in mecca with a pig on a leash.
Apparently revisionism concerning the Battle of Poitiers has been going on for some time. French Wikipedia quotes French writer Anatole France:
"The most fatal day in the History of France" was "the day of the Battle of Poitiers, when, in 732, Arab science, art and civilization withdrew before the Frankish barbarity."
What Wikipedia does not tell you (except in the footnote) is that Anatole France himself did not say it, rather one of his characters in the novel La Vie en Fleur says it in a teasing way. The character is Monsieur Dubois, and the title of the chapter containing the quote is "Monsieur Dubois Teases".
It is to be hoped that people who read this page of Wikipedia also read the footnote.
Wikipedia also cites Adolph Hitler who is supposed to have declared to Martin Bormann:
"If Charles Martel had been beaten at Poitiers, the world would have had a different face. Since the world was already condemned to the Jewish influence (and its by-product, Christianity, is such an insipid thing!), it would have been better if Islam had won. This religion rewards heroism, promises warriors joys in seventh heaven... Driven by a similar spirit, the Germans would have conquered the world. They were prevented from doing so by Christianity."
Note: Here we have a partial explanation for Hitler's rage against the Jews - they were responsible for Christianity, and Germany would have been better off with its pre-Christian pagan religions. The hatred of Christianity led him to exterminate its source. This is not very different from what Islam would do if it could - first, annihilate the Jews, then Christianity. Neo-pagan writers also espouse this view. Sigmund Freud too believed that the hatred of Christianity was the driving force behind Hitler's genocidal frenzy.
Then Wikipedia moves on to modern historians:
The importance of the battle is, even in our own time, so great in the imaginations of European and Arab peoples, that one historian goes so far as to deny it ever happened, attributing its invention to French chroniclers of the Late Middle Ages, who were trying to mask the defeat of Nouaillé (1356).
Note: Nouaillé refers to the other Battle of Poitiers in 1356, during the Hundred Years War, when the King of France was taken prisoner of the English.
Note too that the historian who denies that the battle ever took place is Nas E. Boutammina, a Muslim writer, whose book "La Bataille de Poitiers n'a jamais eu lieu" (The battle of Poitiers never happened) was published in Beirut in 2006.
Wikipedia concludes:
According to historians Françoise Micheau and Philippe Sénac: "Many voices have been raised in an attempt to put the battle in its proper place. To no avail, because, the event has become a symbol and has been passed on to posterity along with the hero Charles Martel. It belongs to that common ideological fund that holds that the French nation, Christian civilization, and European identity are founded on a staging of the clash of civilizations and the exclusion of the Other."
Note: The above quote is probably not translated well. But I had difficulty with their notion that the European ideological heritage can only perceive European identity in terms of a "staging" ("mise en scène") of the clash of civilizations. The authors seem to be saying that the only way Europeans can have a sense of identity is through re-enacting an imagined clash of civilizations and through the exclusion of the "Other". The "staging" may refer to wars, controversies over immigration, choice of textbooks, and feelings of national and religious pride, etc... anything that makes Europeans feel distinct from the "Other". If this is what they mean, it is only half the story - what about the "Other"? Doesn't the "Other" have the same need to feel distinct from the Europeans? Doesn't every civilization take particular pride in its accomplishments, waging wars offensively or defensively, patroling its borders, setting immigration quotas, in order to protect and preserve that which is distinctly their own?
Historian Suzanne Citron emphasizes the role of the battle of Poitiers in "the subconscious racist and anti-Arab impulses and in the illusion of the superiority of the white Catholic civilization."
Well, that's clear enough.
So we've come full circle, from a glorious battle won by a great Frankish hero to a minor event on the level of a fist fight, blown out of proportion by the fertile imagination of myth-indoctrinated racist anti-Arab people, i.e., the French.
Personally, I'll take Gibbon over Madame Citron.
FYI, there is a post on the Battle of Poitiers, dating from 2005, at the website of the Norwegian blogger Fjordman. He uses several old accounts from Arab chroniclers to show various points of view, and closes with the Chronicle of Saint Denis.
Illustration at top from Herodote.
Perhaps we shouldn't complain too much about camel rides in Poitiers. A quick Google will lead you to lots of information about camel riding all over the world. In 1942, camels were herded through the streets of New York. They're better looking than some of the two-legged creatures you are apt to see today on Fifth Avenue. Photo from Camelphotos.

Anyway, Poitiers now has at least two mosques. Review this post.
Labels: Charles Martel, History, Islam, Poitiers

22 Comments:
Charles Martel was known as 'The Hammer'. According to what l have read he was, apart from his first military engagement, undefeated in battle. Also according to what l have read there was no other standing force in all of Europe, had he been defeated the Muslims would have had free run over continental Europe. He trained his army for twenty years in preperation for this one battle. His force comprised no cavalry, only infantry. Having fought the Muslims and eventually put them to flight he did not risk pursuing them for fear he'd be trapped. Apparently he was quite incredulous his army had defeated the Muslims. ln my view his achievement cannot be overstated. He is an inspiration to all of us and a reminder that now in this time we must be single minded. Those historians such as Gibbon who acknowleged his greatness did not live in a time as perilous as this time we are now in. Therefor for them flipping off a salute or two to Charles Martel doesnt mean very much. For us now in this time things are very different. For us who are aware it is impossible to have confidence in the future.
We must become strong and we must fight.
"Which means that this is the type of person, with his boot-licking imbecilic radical chic initiatives, who is the worst of the gravediggers of the France we love."
This commentator is correct. They are the true problem, white ethnic French PC multiculturalists and dhimmis. This all starts at the universities and earlier, and filters into press, media, arts, politics and the general population. Opposition or patriotic groups on campus must be supported to give an alternative to "conformity of thought".
Anonymous: "This commentator is correct. They are the true problem, white ethnic French PC multiculturalists and dhimmis."
Most ethnic French people are anti-immigration. Same as in the USA.
According to the UrbanDictionary.com, DHIMMIS are :
1. Christians and Jews (and sometimes others) in traditional Islamic empires. They had a recognized but very subordinate legal status.
2. Zeropian politicians who kowtow to political Islam, as in Chiraqistan.
The assertion that European politicians kowtow to political Islam is a lie. The truth is that they kowtow to radical Jewish activists. They are dhimmis to the Jews, not to the Muslims. Same as in the USA. Muslims have no political power. They are absent from the media, arts, and politics.
Anonymous: "This all starts at the universities and earlier, and filters into press, media, arts, politics and the general population."
Yes, but is is more than a simple ideology seeping from the universities. It is a system to identify and eliminate normal people from the system. The media and politicians have been bought. The politicians do not believe their own nonsense. The general population remains massively anti-immigration but has no voice.
Tiberge: "Historian Suzanne Citron emphasizes the role of the battle of Poitiers in "the subconscious racist and anti-Arab impulses and in the illusion of the superiority of the white Catholic civilization."
Citron is Jewish, and gives a characteristically Jewish point of view.
Anonymous said...
"Which means that this is the type of person, with his boot-licking imbecilic radical chic initiatives, who is the worst of the gravediggers of the France we love."
This commentator is correct. They are the true problem, white ethnic French PC multiculturalists and dhimmis. This all starts at the universities and earlier, and filters into press, media, arts, politics and the general population. Opposition or patriotic groups on campus must be supported to give an alternative to "conformity of thought".
July 31, 2010 12:31 PM
Golvan said...
Anonymous: "This commentator is correct. They are the true problem, white ethnic French PC multiculturalists and dhimmis."
Most ethnic French people are anti-immigration. Same as in the USA.
According to the UrbanDictionary.com, DHIMMIS are :
1. Christians and Jews (and sometimes others) in traditional Islamic empires. They had a recognized but very subordinate legal status.
2. Zeropian politicians who kowtow to political Islam, as in Chiraqistan.
The assertion that European politicians kowtow to political Islam is a lie. The truth is that they kowtow to radical Jewish activists. They are dhimmis to the Jews, not to the Muslims. Same as in the USA. Muslims have no political power. They are absent from the media, arts, and politics.
Anonymous: "This all starts at the universities and earlier, and filters into press, media, arts, politics and the general population."
Yes, but is is more than a simple ideology seeping from the universities. It is a system to identify and eliminate normal people from the system. The media and politicians have been bought. The politicians do not believe their own nonsense. The general population remains massively anti-immigration but has no voice.
Tiberge: "Historian Suzanne Citron emphasizes the role of the battle of Poitiers in "the subconscious racist and anti-Arab impulses and in the illusion of the superiority of the white Catholic civilization."
Citron is Jewish, and gives a characteristically Jewish point of view.
July 31, 2010 10:39 PM
taqyia!
go back where you came from!
David Horowitz surveyed university professors and lecturers in the US and concluded about 85% are liberal/leftist/socialist. There were a couple of articles on American Thinker the other day talking about the journolist, last time l looked the estimate was about 400 US journalists and media types are liberal /leftist/ socialist. What nearly everyone doesnt realise - me included until recently - every Western country has been creeping toward the left ever since the sixties. Whilst it is true a lot of Jews are pushing leftism along quite nicely they are not the only ones. Most people simply havent noticed the slide to the left. When you stop and think about how society is now its really quite astounding how far to the left we've gone. We need to make people aware of this.
But then likewise most people do not know about the horrid things contained in the islamic foundation texts. When you tell them 9% of the three foundation texts are devoted to Jew hatred most people are surprised. This links to the article - l think it was this article though it might have been another. http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/statistics-and-the-meaning-of-islam/
The point is a lot of the texts are about hating Jews and Christians - non muslims generally. The average person on the street doesnt know this. Likewise most people dont realise the extent of the persecution of Christians in islam majority countries. l take the view when the muslims stop persecuting Christians they can build some mosques in Western countries - but not until then. The people behind the Ground Zero mosque proposal come from countries that hinder the practise of Christianity yet these same people want to build mosques all over the West. We Westerners really are suckers. The so called 'tolerance' we hold so dear is a joke. lts a 'non thinking persons' tolerance. Really its just ignorance and not wanting to deal with difficult subjects. We need to harden up and start acting like Charles Martel. All you guys out there - time to toughen up. You can still be intellectual, but its time to display a little physical 'poise'. Gentleman the ramparts await us, lets not delay, our duty calls us.
@ golvan
I'm sorry, but this "it's the jooz!!!" stuff is just nonsense and a waste of time. France is a very divided country between cities and rural heartland, the "elite" and media caste most of whom are white ethnic French, and in the universities too, are multi-culturalists. If the small percentage of FN and other patriotic voters abandon Sarko in 2012, the PS will win, immigration politics or not.
Anonymous (10:32 AM): "The point is a lot of the texts are about hating Jews and Christians"
In France, I think the hostility of Black and Arab immigrants against white people has nothing to do with their religion.
In any case, the real problem is not their hostility, but the fact that they are rapidly going to replace us, if nothing is done.
Anonymous: "l take the view when the muslims stop persecuting Christians they can build some mosques in Western countries - but not until then."
l take the view that third-world people should not be living in my country. They have their own countries and their own nations. I'd like to have mine too. I don't care if they are Muslim, Hindu, animist, Buddhist...
Golvan said, "The assertion that European politicians kowtow to political Islam is a lie. The truth is that they kowtow to radical Jewish activists. They are dhimmis to the Jews, not to the Muslims. Same as in the USA. Muslims have no political power. They are absent from the media, arts, and politics."
The fact that muzlims have no voting strength does not mean that they have no political power. But their continual threats of violence, actually carried out from time to time in various parts of the world so that we all know that they are to be taken seriously, they have tremendous political power, far beyond their numbers. Most politicians in most Western countries are literally scared to death of the muzlims. They will do almost anything imaginable to avoid a direct confrontation with the muzlims, even when in contradicts the fundamental values of their nation. They are that afraid of the muzlims. I would say that represents considerable political power.
In France, I think the hostility of Black and Arab immigrants against white people has nothing to do with their religion.
this is islam:
documentary - Undercover Mosque
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-19/episode-1/
Most politicians in most Western countries are literally scared to death of the muzlims. They will do almost anything imaginable to avoid a direct confrontation with the muzlims, even when in contradicts the fundamental values of their nation.
True. One reason is that the political elites in Western countries are living quite well these days. No recession or pension worries for them! They're very comfortable and insulated from the brutal facts of life the rest of us face. They don't have to ride the trains to get to work the way ordinary folk do in London and Paris and NY. Their cars aren't the ones getting torched.
So why rock the boat? If your conception of public service does not include any traditional attachment to the culture and mores of your country, why on earth place yourself in danger by angering a notoriously unstable and angry bunch? Much safer to give in, and if you're like Mayor Bloomberg, you can shake a finger at your countrymen and women for their unseemly "bigotry" and then retreat back into the cocoon of 24/7 protection and security the rest of us don't have.
Diane
The assertion that European politicians kowtow to political Islam is a lie. The truth is that they kowtow to radical Jewish activists. They are dhimmis to the Jews, not to the Muslims. Same as in the USA. Muslims have no political power. They are absent from the media, arts, and politics.
WAKE UP!
http://bigpeace.com/cbrim/2010/08/04/shariah-comes-to-the-supreme-court-elena-kagans-decisions/
what about the ground zero mosque?
WAKE UP!
Diane: So why rock the boat?
If the political elites are afraid of Muslims, the real question is: Why do they let them in?
There is more Muslim immigration now than there has ever been in the past.
--
Anonymous 1:55
I read your article on bigpeace.com
It says that "a vote to confirm Elena Kagan’s nomination will bring a liberal, pro-Shariah justice to our highest Court".
But Kagan is Jewish not Muslim!
If it was not for Jewish activism, I think most Muslims would stay in their home countries in the first place, and those who settle in the West would not be encouraged to advocate for Shariah!
I want to thank those of you who have taken the time to comment and to respond to the comments of others. I also want to make it clear that if I do not moderate or react to an anti-Semitic comment, that is NOT to be taken as a sign that I agree with it. Golvan is not new to this site: he posted several times a year or so ago, and I spent a great deal of time responding. This is not only a drain on my energies, it is a total waste of time. An anti-Semite is an anti-Semite, and that's that. A leopard does not change his spots. I have on many occasions spoken of the failings in the Jewish character that lead them into left-wing activism. There are many reasons for disliking them because of their participation in the liberalization of the West, but anti-Semitism, the belief that Jews are the cause of all evil, the belief that if there were no Jews, no
Israel, everything would be fine, and the Muslims could live in peace with everyone else, etc... this sort of delusion is impossible to argue with and impossible to eradicate from the minds of those who need to believe that evil has one source only.
Now, as to why the political elites let the Muslims in, it is because they cannot admit they are terrified, and they cannot extricate themselves from their liberal ideology, any more than an anti-Semite can liberate himself from Jew-hatred. There are a lot of sick people in the world today. Utopian, fallacious ideologies, that bring hell on earth, poison the minds of many, including the leaders. We are helpless as we watch the events unfold. We have no one to turn to, not in America, not in France. But that still does not mean it's "over". There are still many people who are not brain-washed, who have not been fooled by media propaganda, and who, though terrified of Islam, are more terrified of the prospect of life in a black-dominated or Muslim-dominated world. It is still possible that they will revolt, but no one can predict the outcome. It strikes me as so ironic that the West with its arsenals of weapons that could bring almost any country to its knees, is afraid to close its borders, enforce its immigration laws, enforce its laws on separation of Church and State, and allow its police forces to do the job of protecting citizens. Above all, the West has become afraid of its own heritage, of its own great cultures, and of the moral order that once reigned. The West is committing suicide, like a stubborn person who would rather break than bend. The West would rather die than admit its liberal/socialist/progressive ideology is a bunch of crap.
Thank you Dr. D for showing how politically powerful Islam really has become. And that is only the tip of the iceberg.
Re: Elena Kagan. Her election, after that of Sottomayor, is another disaster for the Supreme Court. She is Jewish and homosexual. Her values are completely left-wing. They are not Jewish values, they are leftist values espoused by half (or more) of the United States. If she is pro-Sharia, this is because she was put on the Court by a Muslim, i.e., the President. The fact that she is Jewish is disgraceful for the Jewish people, but insignificant in the total picture of a general Stalinist takeover of the United States.
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*** Her values are completely left-wing. They are not Jewish values, they are leftist values ***
What do you think will be her views concerning Jewish over-representation and White under-representation in every elite institution? How do you explain the Jewish over-representation, even in institutions that used to be right-wing? How come "leftist Jews" don't advocate non-Jewish mass immigration to Israel?
*** The fact that she is Jewish is disgraceful for the Jewish people ***
I'm sure most Jews don't think it is disgraceful.
*** she was put on the Court by a Muslim, i.e., the President ***
I think she benefited from Jewish ethnic networking. I've read articles that say she had no particular qualification for the job, apart from being Jewish. I'm sure Jewish activism was also crucial in getting Obama into the White House.
*** The West is committing suicide ***
It looks more like murder to me. It's being done by a small minority. The "far-left" activists are only a tiny segment of the general population, but they are in charge of the political and cultural institutions. By a strange coincidence, Jewish "leftist" activists are over-represented in those institutions. They make no secret of their political views. My audacious theory is that Jewish activism works, that it does make a difference.
Even if you think Jewish activism doesn't play a big role, you should recognize that the problem comes from an activist minority entrenched in the media and in our central institutions. They should be denounced as the main culprits. You will never manage to slowly change the country's zeitgeist until new political leaders can democratically be elected. In fact, there is nothing wrong with most people. There is no collective madness. But there is something wrong with the activist minority that is in charge of public institutions. They are waging war on white people. Our main enemies are the people in charge of the mass media.
*** terrified of the prospect of life in a black-dominated or Muslim-dominated world ***
The idea that we may end up under Muslim rule, having to do prayers five times a day, strikes me as a joke. The counter-jihadists are nuts.
Correction - I'm afraid one of my sentences doesn't say what I want it to say. I'll rephrase:
You'll never be able to gradually change the country's zeitgeist and, as a result, get pro-white political leaders elected.
What I mean is that an entrenched minority is blocking the political process, so that we can not change things gradually from the bottom up. We cannot win by simply convincing voters. Most of them are already anti-immigration, but they are always given a choice between a pro-immigration politician and another pro-immigration politician. Before we can have any electoral success, I think we'll have to take a few leftist fortresses, beginning with the media fortresses. We should use the internet to make our voices heard and convince some people, but we should also attack the "leftist" institutional strongholds.
Some people think the problem is the liberal zeitgeist. Other people, like me, think the institutions have been hijacked by an extremist minority. I'm no expert at political strategy, but, whether you believe in the first or in the second explanation should have implications on what you think is the best way to win the country back.
«But Kagan is Jewish not Muslim!»
maybe it's taqyiia!
«The idea that we may end up under Muslim rule, having to do prayers five times a day, strikes me as a joke. The counter-jihadists are nuts.»
do you overlook the danger of islam?
There are 77 synagogues - this has been three centuries in the making!
Muslims have over 100 mosques - in two decades!
the Ground Zero neighborhood isn't even a muslim neighborhood...
have you forgotten what islamic rule did to spain in the past.... you people instead of making these prejudiced and biased views why dont you listen to reason....
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