Wednesday, September 28, 2011

Juppé: Democracy and Islam are Compatible


The Pope is not the only one making statements of dubious validity about the compatibility between Islam and Western institutions. French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé has some insights into Islam that even Muslims aren't aware of. Joachim Véliocas posted this article three days ago:

The elections in Egypt and Tunisia have not yet taken place, no Islamic government is yet installed in the revolutionary countries, but that has not prevented Alain Juppé (who rolls out the green carpet for the Muslim Brotherhood in Bordeaux) to draw conclusions on the so-called democratic nature of the Islamic ideology. The increasing violence against Christians, the attack on the monasteries by the Egyptian army, must be a preview of "Islamic democracy". The example of Turkey led by the Islamist AK Party, that tracks overly curious reporters and hardly makes an effort to guarantee religious freedom is really encouraging. (There are fourteen times as many honor crimes since the AKP took over.)

The following appeared in La Croix on September 23:

"France has revised it Arab policy, without question," declared the French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé in a long interview September 22 with Al-Jazeerah Arab television.

According to the the head of French diplomacy, "we have given too much importance to what they called the stability of Arab countries, that is to say that we gave too much credit to regimes that told us they were the best ramparts against extremism and religious fanaticism. Thus we underestimated the frustrations of the people and their aspirations for freedom and democracy."

"Who has not made errors?" said Alain Juppé in an attempt to justify himself. "We did not see it coming. The great movement took us by surprise."

"We now understand that the situation had evolved and that we had to change quite simply our way of seeing the relation of Islam to democracy," he explained. We were a bit drugged on the idea that had been instilled in us that Islam was incompatible with democracy. I do not believe it is true. There are Muslim countries attached to their faith, to their religion, and which are completely capable of undergoing democratic evolutions. Morocco, for example, provides a sort of model that must be sustained."

Is Juppé unaware that Christians cannot build churches or announce the Christ in Morocco, thanks to article 220 of the penal code? How can Morocco, corrupt to the marrow, where the people are suffering in extreme poverty, where the apparatchiks dripping with wealth parade by, be a model that inspires other Muslim countries?

Is this cynicism on the part of Juppé or crass ignorance of the reality of Morocco?

Note: Off hand I would say that Juppé is a master of cynicism.

Joachim Véliocas mentioned article 220 of the Moroccan penal code. In another article from his website dated February 15, 2010, he quotes from an NGO called Portes Ouvertes that supports persecuted Christians:

No fewer than fifteen military vehicles surrounded the house. The Christians inside could not believe what was happening: they had merely gathered for a Bible lesson. The event took place on February 4 in Amizmiz, a small town south of Marrakech. Eighteen persons, including five children, were gathered in a private home when sixty officers, two captains and a colonel in the Royal Moroccan Army burst into the building. They arrested the whole group, and confiscated the Bibles and two computers.

The Moroccan Christians were detained in custody for more than fourteen hours before being freed. Two six-month old babies and three children under the age of four were with them. "During all this time, they kept repeating to us that these arrests had been personally ordered by the new Moroccan minister of justice and by the highest command of the gendarmerie, general Housni Benslimane," explained the leader of the Bible study group, whose name cannot be revealed for security reasons. There was also a foreigner in the group who was immediately expelled from the country. According to an Arab press agency, the operation was ordered "as a result of information on a secret meeting that was supposed to initiate people into Christianity and that could shake the faith of the Muslims and the values of the Kingdom".

The article points out that in March and December of the previous year two other Christian study groups had been arrested and held.

Article 220 of the penal code condemns any attempt to change a Muslim's mind on the subject of his faith. A spokesman for the Moroccan government declared in April 2009: "Freedom of religion does not mean freedom to choose your faith." (…)

H/T: Yves Daoudal

One of Daoudal's readers explains why Christianity, more so than Islam, is incompatible with Democracy. The comment is a bit difficult to understand, but I think the gist is clear:

Christianity is certainly much more incompatible with democracy than Islam, if only for the obvious reason that democracy is a tactic used by tyrants to get around the intermediary powers (Napoléon I, Napoléon III, Hitler…); universal suffrage was put into place for this reason: to get around the existing institutions.

Recently, after his coup d'Etat, de Gaulle expanded suffrage for the same reason: to break the "intermediary powers" (…) placing the clique of his heirs in the delicate situation of having to swallow democracy as something other than what it has always been: a political/Machiavellian strategy.

To the brutal oppression of tyrants such as Pilate, Nero and Caesar, against which Islam is unarmed (I do not know of any "Muslim Molière" who can take a stand against the fake demoniacal monarchy), democracy merely adds perfidy to better extend its web. So as Marx noted, the Christian can still invoke the spirit and the letter of the Gospel against the cynical use that the clergy makes of it in the service of public power. Whereas, in a totalitarian democratic republic, the citizen is completely stuck, caught like a fly in the spider's web of "natural right" and anthropology.

This is interesting because we often tend to think of Christianity as being "democratic" or as providing favorable soil on which democracy can grow. But as we see in our current events, democracy is neither good or evil. It depends entirely on the people and who they choose to be their elected leaders. A democracy in its final stages means a type of mob rule orchestrated by the most mercenary, ambitious and violent elements of society. Democracy is not to be confused with "republic", in which there are intermediary powers that prevent the tyranny of both tyrant and mob.

Christianity is better suited to a monarchy or to a republic, precisely because it is itself an intermediary power or an alternative power. Another intermediary power is private schools, something the democratic levelers cannot abide.

Islam is ideally suited to a democracy because the people will always elect the most ideologically indoctrinated Muslims to be their leaders. And no one will be able to dissent and survive.

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29 Comments:

At September 28, 2011 8:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

- Demagogy..?

Any other purpose from Juppé here? A way of smoothing over things in the "hope" that muslims will get used to the thought, and get used to the idea of accepting democracy?

Who is he talking to?
- Muslims in the "Arab Spring countries"?
- Political leaders of those countries?
- Muslims in Bordeaux

Is he speaking as a major of Bordeaux, or as the Foreign Minister?

How does he distinguish between the two?

 
At September 28, 2011 1:13 PM, Blogger DP111 said...

Is there an insanity virus or flu going around?

If there is, then how is one to detect it?

 
At September 28, 2011 1:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christianity is certainly much more incompatible with democracy than Islam, if only for the obvious reason that democracy is a tactic used by tyrants to get around the intermediary powers (Napoléon I, Napoléon III, Hitler…); universal suffrage was put into place for this reason: to get around the existing institutions.

Recently, after his coup d'Etat, de Gaulle expanded suffrage for the same reason: to break the "intermediary powers" (…) placing the clique of his heirs in the delicate situation of having to swallow democracy as something other than what it has always been: a political/Machiavellian strategy.

To the brutal oppression of tyrants such as Pilate, Nero and Caesar, against which Islam is unarmed (I do not know of any "Muslim Molière" who can take a stand against the fake demoniacal monarchy), democracy merely adds perfidy to better extend its web. So as Marx noted, the Christian can still invoke the spirit and the letter of the Gospel against the cynical use that the clergy makes of it in the service of public power. Whereas, in a totalitarian democratic republic, the citizen is completely stuck, caught like a fly in the spider's web of "natural right" and anthropology.

This is interesting because we often tend to think of Christianity as being "democratic" or as providing favorable soil on which democracy can grow. But as we see in our current events, democracy is neither good or evil. It depends entirely on the people and who they choose to be their elected leaders. A democracy in its final stages means a type of mob rule orchestrated by the most mercenary, ambitious and violent elements of society. Democracy is not to be confused with "republic", in which there are intermediary powers that prevent the tyranny of both tyrant and mob.

Christianity is better suited to a monarchy or to a republic, precisely because it is itself an intermediary power or an alternative power. Another intermediary power is private schools, something the democratic levelers cannot abide.

Islam is ideally suited to a democracy because the people will always elect the most ideologically indoctrinated Muslims to be their leaders. And no one will be able to dissent and survive.





huh?
written by a third-world foreigner?

 
At September 28, 2011 2:01 PM, Blogger tiberge said...

@ anonymous (who said "huh?")

No it was not written by a Third Worlder. The point is we always think of democracy as a good thing, when it can be a very bad thing when it is in the service of a totalitarian ideology. Do not confuse Republic with Democracy. The latter becomes totalitarian as the people are pampered and spoiled over time, seeking only their own pleasures. Then they will "elect" a person who will continue to pamper them and gratify them. A Republic has checks and balances to prevent this. Christianity flourished in European monarchies and American-style republics. But how can it flourish when there is mob rule, hedonism, or atheism? Islam because of its violent nature is better suited for a system where there is no advancement, no maturity, only gratification of the senses. It can take over easily, and put down dissent mercilessly, and never advance forward. But it will still hold "elections" as a kind of farcical token nod to democracy.

Only advanced nations - advanced spiritually and intellectually - can handle democracy. We have been dumbed down, and are continuing to be dumbed down, and our institutions, which should act as "intermediary powers" are slowing giving way to the ideology of the mob: egalitarianism, homosexual marriages and adoptions, feminism, bioethical nightmares, unlimited abortions, Stalinist-style schools, etc... We can still stop it, but something as yet unknown has to happen to jar the people back into normalcy.

 
At September 28, 2011 4:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.propagandes.info/product_info.php/cest-goldman-sachs-qui-dirige-le-monde-pas-les-gouvernements-video-bbc-p-1061

 
At September 28, 2011 5:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Behind the scenes of
The End of A Reign"

Nouvel Obs' front page this week
(Photo of Sarkozy in profile against the setting sun)

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualite/le-dossier-de-l-obs/20110928.OBS1300/hortefeux-et-la-lachete-des-journalistes-qui-fracassent-les-amis-de-sarkozy.html

 
At September 28, 2011 5:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Democracy as we know it, is not about numbers only, but about a state of mind based on the set of values we have cultivated founded on Christianity

That's why our Western democracies worked, because they had this basic quality

Islamic democracy can only be about numbers based on islam.

Like one Pakistani (muslim) right wing politician in Oslo says...

"Muslims must adjust to the laws and regulations (of the country), AS LONG AS they are a minority in a society"

A phrase the Pakistanis have rehearsed and which they perform to their own great satisfaction, showing how much they are willing to "integrate". Kitman & taqiya.

They probably don't see the immense potential danger this phrase implies for any society which is not islamic from the beginning, and which really has no intention of submitting to sharia.

This quote has been brought up, again, in discussions after Head of Courts Administration recently proposed to legitimize sharia courts in Norway, with reference to UK, as a parallel law system

http://www.document.no/2011/09/leder-for-domstoladministrasjonen-apner-for-legitimering-av-shariadomstoler/


Sharia courts
Report from London
Interview in English, with Anjem Chaudhry, and more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EHlBeTigPnA

 
At September 28, 2011 5:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Budget for 2012 up 27% to meet asylum demands

"La part consacrée à l'asile dans le budget 2012 consacré à l'immigration et l'asile est en augmentation de 27% pour "tenir compte du niveau élevé des besoins d’hébergement des demandeurs d’asile", a précisé mercredi le ministère de l'Intérieur."

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/2011/09/28/97002-20110928FILWWW00607-immigration-27-pour-le-budget-asile.php

 
At September 28, 2011 5:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Off topic

Word verification: "Palin"
- What? :-)

 
At September 29, 2011 8:39 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mobilizing the muslims up to the 2012 elections

“Inch’Allah” : nouveau titre de Grand Corps Malade

"Most preferred personality" Yannick Noah, with other PC artists and "personalities", at work to prevent Marine and the French getting into power

"Un second tour sans Marine…"

http://www.fdesouche.com/244525-inchallah-le-nouveau-clip-de-grand-corps-malade-video

 
At September 29, 2011 8:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

tiberge's comment here reminded me of this salient quote:

"Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

 
At September 29, 2011 10:07 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Observation

One guest from the team Eric et Ramzy was a guest at C à vous, France 5, having nothing to sell.

Was his product this pro-islam anti-FN propaganda, without mentioning the campaign?

He was just a side-guest, just turning up at the table


http://www.france5.fr/c-a-vous/?page=videos&integrale=1442

Evening talk show around a dinner

 
At September 29, 2011 12:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

islam is not compatible with democracy, muslims follow sharia, the bronze age goat f*cker cr*p.

karzai offered men the beating of women, it's sharia:

“allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.” - pedophile mohammad


karzai told them what mullahs say at the mosques.

islam should be QUARANTINED.

 
At September 29, 2011 1:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Book launch Thursday

http://fr.novopress.info/98227/tout-sur-la-face-cachee-de-ribery/

Ribery, French footballer converted to islam, aka Bilal Yusuf Mohammed, recently calling his son the same as one of Gadaffi's sons, Seif al islam, the sword of islam

 
At September 29, 2011 2:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

France2 - Right now
"Des paroles et des actes"
Juppé

http://video-direct.france2.fr/player.php?id=1121

 
At September 29, 2011 3:03 PM, Blogger DP111 said...

Christianity is the bedrock of Western civilisation.

When modern liberal values that were based on the Christian faith, are cut off from their Christian roots, that is when the problem starts.

 
At September 29, 2011 3:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

France 2

Juppé is symptomatically, accusing interviewer Eric Zemmour of "islamophobia"

 
At September 29, 2011 5:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.purepeople.com/article/franck-ribery-la-face-cachee-de-la-star-au-coeur-de-la-polemique_a88280/1

 
At September 29, 2011 6:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Probably a remarkable book
"The Mayors Who Court Islamisme"

"- Les propos de Juppé doivent être mis en perspective avec le livre “Ces maires qui courtisent l’Islamisme” de Joachim Veliocas."

http://www.fdesouche.com/244838-guerre-en-libye-eric-zemmour-vs-alain-juppe#comment-2678921

 
At September 29, 2011 6:15 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Hidden Face of Ribery

Photo no 2
Frankenstein-style sewn together on the side toward the hairline

http://www.purepeople.com/article/franck-ribery-la-face-cachee-de-la-star-au-coeur-de-la-polemique_a88280/1

Hidden face - Face cachée

 
At September 29, 2011 8:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

On/Off topic

French court took Aga Khan divorce lawsuit, which Swiss justice had refused

http://www.purepeople.com/article/l-aga-khan-condamne-en-appel-recolte-le-divorce-le-plus-cher-de-l-histoire_a88297/1

 
At September 30, 2011 11:47 PM, Blogger tiberge said...

1) - I have heard about the birth of Franck Ribéry's son and the name (Sword of Islam) he was given. Ribéry strikes me as a person of rather low intelligence. Or an opportunistic soulless man who will collaborate with anybody if he can benefit somehow.

For those who don't know, Ribéry is a soccer player who used to play for the "French" soccer team. He was one of the few whites, so I guess he felt guilty and converted. Now at least he's Muslim and can feel like one of boys.

2)Muslims seek to become the majority wherever they move. But even as a minority ethnic/racial group they act as if they are in charge because they are soon to be a religious majority, and because the government lets them act this way. The French government secretly wants them to become the majority. Then it can "wash its hands" of the whole thing like Pilate. It will no longer be beholden to the ethnic Frenchmen whom it hates, or to Catholicism which it hates, or to French values which it rejected long ago. The French government at that point will be "free" from its duties to its people and it can turn the "keys" over to Islam.

If Marine is elected that process may be slowed down. Or if there were a general economic catastrophe worse than the one in 2008, that could have an effect on immigration. Or, the people really will see the light and murder the rulers who have sold them down the river.

3) I did a post once on the book about the mayors. The author is Joachim Veliocas who writes at Islamisation. He fequently posts excerpts from the book at his blog. Juppe is one of the leading pro-Islam mayors. He has given them just about everything they want. And souks thrive around the cathedral in Bordeaux.

For Veliocas See:

http://www.islamisation.fr/

4) I did not hear the interview with Juppe but will try to catch up. A Foreign Minister calling Zemmour Islamophobic is low, but Juppe is and has always been a career-oriented politician, an obedient bureaucrat and technocrat.

I believe he spent some time in jail, but I forget the charges. He was out of France for a while, in Canada, then returned, whitewashed, to become mayor of Bordeaux and Sarkozy's minister.

 
At October 01, 2011 12:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The French government secretly wants them to become the majority. Then it can "wash its hands" of the whole thing like Pilate.

It will no longer be beholden to the ethnic Frenchmen whom it hates, or to Catholicism which it hates, or to French values which it rejected long ago.

The French government at that point will be "free" from its duties to its people and it can turn the "keys" over to Islam."

- Tragic!


tiberge

I have no doubt whatsoever, that you know what you're talking about.

I just can't make myself want to see this evil

What would be the advantages for the government?

What do we do to protect ourself and ourselves, in such a horrible situation?

 
At October 01, 2011 2:05 PM, Blogger tiberge said...

@ anonymous

You should always have doubts about what I say when I give a subjective analysis of a situation. I am trying to see inside the "mind" so to speak of the government. Things may not really be that bad, but they cannot be far from it, and not only in France. You have to regard this situation as suicidal, and when a person has given up on life, they not only want to die, they want everyone to die.

I have just read a report that Sarkozy intends to spend MORE on immigration in his last few months in office. He may of course be re-elected and we can only assume the immigration problem will continue to worsen. Readers of the article said that he knows he will lose in 2012 and is giving his "last hurrah" to immigration. This is both suicidal and genocidal, if that is not too strong a term. In the Fifth French Republic there has been an endless stream of leaders who hate Western values rooted in Christianity and the very basic notion of self-protection of one's self and one's people. For these leaders, protecting their status, their position, has been much more important that protecting their people. But, of course, the people share the blame.

Therefore I feel that the tension and hypocrisy in which these people live on a daily basis builds in intensity until they, like a dying person, just want to get it over with.

 
At October 03, 2011 2:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tiberge:"Things may not really be that bad, but they cannot be far from it, and not only in France."
ln fact things are worse right across the West. The small minority that fights the destruction of our Western civilisation enjoys very few successes - and the West continues on at breakneck speed toward the abyss. l cant think of one victory we have enjoyed. We fight a constant succession of rearguard actions - and never seem to get anywhere. Our respective Western countries are dictatorships ruled over by traitors and barbarians - in short we are doomed, however we should continue to fight, if only because to join the ranks of the destroyers of Western civilisation is too filthy a thought to contemplate. Even if its just habit that keeps us going it is enough. There are good and bad habits. The habit to fight the socialist one worlders is a good habit!
This is a link to a story you might not have seen yet http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2011/10/les-hommes-libres-free-men-fraud-from.html

 
At October 03, 2011 2:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Free Men"
Les Hommes Libres

But who is going to pay to watch this propaganda?

 
At October 05, 2011 7:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christopher Caldwell

"Reflections on the Revolution in Europe" launched in French

Caldwell is interviewed on morning news, Canal+


http://www.editionsdutoucan.fr/livre_liste.php?id_theme=3

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/books/review/Ajami-t.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.fdesouche.com/246168-le-regard-dun-neo-conservateur-americain-sur-lislam-qui-va-transformer-la-france-et-leurope-canal

 
At October 05, 2011 9:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PS - Caldwell book

NY Times is not surprisingly taking this opportunity to talk about "The golden age of islam", and "their right" to be back in Europe again making life unbearable for the Europeans. Article written by Fouad Ajami.

Photo of desert clad females at Trocadero, with the Eiffel Tower in the background is not lying, tough.

 
At October 06, 2011 12:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

and "their right" to be back in Europe again making life unbearable for the Europeans. Article written by Fouad Ajami.


islam invaded europe in 711

islam is invading europe

KICK iSLAM OUT!

 

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